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#1 2014-Jul-26 8:28 pm

dontaw
Member
Registered: 2013-Oct-19
Posts: 54

AirVenture

I'm off to Oshkosh, driving, Wednesday. Have ADS B on my wish list. Anyone know of any dood deals on a receiver compatable with Naviator?

Thanks......

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#2 2014-Jul-26 9:13 pm

jimgfitzgerald
Member
Registered: 2012-Oct-26
Posts: 530

Re: AirVenture

I don't know about deals, but I would not get a receiver, get a transceiver.  I first bought a Dual XGPS170 receiver and quickly decided it was pretty useless for traffic without ADS-B out.  I sold it on Ebay and bought a SkyGuard transceiver.

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#3 2014-Jul-28 6:20 pm

dontaw
Member
Registered: 2013-Oct-19
Posts: 54

Re: AirVenture

Thanks, good advice. Ironically today I recieved a "show special" on the 170 for $495.00.
May be reflecting obsolescence? ??

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#4 2014-Jul-28 7:12 pm

jimgfitzgerald
Member
Registered: 2012-Oct-26
Posts: 530

Re: AirVenture

It's OK if weather info is all you're after.

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#5 2014-Jul-30 1:08 pm

rash
Member
Registered: 2013-Mar-19
Posts: 76

Re: AirVenture

I still have and use my 170 with Naviator with much success. In fact, my mechanic and I even installed an external antenna for it a couple weeks ago - I now get continuous coverage from about 100agl to 100agl and typically see 4, 5, or more ground stations. (I'm in NC.)

My main interest is the weather, which it does very well, though I do occasionally see "eavesdropped" traffic. I should be ADS-B out compliant (via my transponder) by early next year - my understanding is when that happens I should see traffic around me on Naviator more reliably...

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#6 2014-Aug-01 6:51 am

dldavis
Member
Registered: 2012-Dec-30
Posts: 35

Re: AirVenture

The 170 works just fine with Naviator, particularly if you are in congested airspace near major terminals.  Flying to Oshkosh, I saw tons of traffic around DC, but only light traffic over the mountains and the midwest, but then tons more traffic around Chicago where I needed it most.  It was also very helpful with weather cells, painting the identical picture as I saw on my XM receiver.  If I lived in Wyoming, the 170 probably has less value, but I've been very happy with the way the 170 works in congested airspace, and it paints virtually the same picture as the ADSB-out systems under those conditions where you need it most. 

If I were buying again today, I would probably buy a dual band receiver, because that also provides some benefit at a very reasonable cost.  Not sure I'd go for a fixed installation transceiver just yet, since those are substantially more expensive right now, and the prices of those systems seem to be dropping by about half every year right now.  It may be possible to get a very reasonably priced fixed installation ADSB-out system soon.    The market for portable transceivers is a lot more uncertain.  The FAA is actively discouraging those systems and has been successful in stopping one manufacturer already, according to an avionics vendor at Oshkosh.  I understand one other portable ADSB out manufacturer is resisting those efforts by the FAA, and I hope that manufacturer is successful in serving the non-certified market at least.  Perhaps, I missed it if there was one, but I did not see any portable transceivers for sale at Oshkosh.   

In any case, Naviator coupled with one of these low cost ADSB solutions provides a very decent capability for traffic and weather that was way out of reach of most GA pilots just a few years ago.

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#7 2014-Aug-01 7:08 am

jimgfitzgerald
Member
Registered: 2012-Oct-26
Posts: 530

Re: AirVenture

The Dual XGPS170 is ADS-B in only.  It is not ADS-B out.  It is good for weather and marginal for traffic as is any other ADS-B in only device.  ADS-B in only can only receive other aircraft with ADS-B out, which are not many as of now.  In addition, if you happen to be flying in close proximity to another airplane that has ADS-B out, you may be able to intercept the ground station signal being sent to them.  If so, you will see all mode C traffic within a certain radius of that other airplane.  The salient point is not how much traffic you are seeing, but how much traffic you are not seeing.

Last edited by jimgfitzgerald (2014-Aug-01 7:15 am)

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#8 2014-Aug-01 7:57 am

dldavis
Member
Registered: 2012-Dec-30
Posts: 35

Re: AirVenture

Neither ADS-B out nor ADS-B in gets all traffic.   ADS-B out gets more traffic than ADS-B in.  ADS-B in gets essentially the same picture as ADS-B out in busy airspace.

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#9 2014-Aug-01 8:14 am

jimgfitzgerald
Member
Registered: 2012-Oct-26
Posts: 530

Re: AirVenture

With ADS-B out, your ADS-B in will receive all traffic with mode C if you are in the vicinity of a ground station.

Last edited by jimgfitzgerald (2014-Aug-01 8:15 am)

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#10 2014-Aug-01 8:26 am

jimgfitzgerald
Member
Registered: 2012-Oct-26
Posts: 530

Re: AirVenture

ADSB_Info_Graphic_3D_7-791x1024.jpg

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#11 2014-Aug-01 1:04 pm

dldavis
Member
Registered: 2012-Dec-30
Posts: 35

Re: AirVenture

"With ADS-B out, your ADS-B in will receive all traffic with mode C if you are in the vicinity of a ground station."   

Almost, but not quite right.   ADSB is dependent on FAA radar.  You will only see the Mode C traffic that FAA radar sees, which can be a lot less than all Mode C traffic.  For example it's quite likely you will not see the mode C traffic operating at pattern altitude in a typical non-controlled field without radar.  Unfortunately, this is where a lot of mid-air collision risk exists.   Fortunately, a lot of VFR enroute traffic operates at altitudes which provide some radar visibility, but that coverage can also be spotty at relatively low altitudes.

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#12 2014-Aug-01 1:27 pm

jimgfitzgerald
Member
Registered: 2012-Oct-26
Posts: 530

Re: AirVenture

And in that case, the advantage to having ADS-B out is that other airplanes with ADS-B in can see you.  ADS-B in/out is not perfect, but far superior to ADS-B in only.  I had A Dual XGPS170 flying in the Atlanta area, and I consider it almost usless for traffic.

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#13 2014-Aug-01 1:57 pm

dldavis
Member
Registered: 2012-Dec-30
Posts: 35

Re: AirVenture

Fortunately the FAA doesn't agree with you, as they created a very low cost way to get some additional useful information to GA pilots, while waiting on the affordable general ADS-B solutions to be developed before the mandate which is down the road a few years. 

It would have been even better if they simply provided the full radar picture to all users all the time.  It would have been far simpler and easier for the FAA to just broadcast that, the same way they do the weather, instead of the complicated way they send out partial traffic pictures in response to local transmitters.  But they were afraid that not enough users would buy new transponders unless those users got some perceived benefit for that extra cost.

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#14 2014-Aug-01 2:12 pm

jimgfitzgerald
Member
Registered: 2012-Oct-26
Posts: 530

Re: AirVenture

ADS-B in only for traffic is almost worse than no ADS-B at all.  It gives many a false sense of security.  Many do not understand how ADS-B works either.  The FAA mandated ADS-B out, not ADS-B in.  You can try to position this however you want, but ADS-B in without ADS-B out, is almost useless for traffic.  Sell your Dual XGPS170 and get a SkyGuard transceiver or one of the other portable in/out units until you're ready to purchase a 2020 compliant device.

Last edited by jimgfitzgerald (2014-Aug-01 2:14 pm)

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#15 2014-Aug-07 1:39 pm

dontaw
Member
Registered: 2013-Oct-19
Posts: 54

Re: AirVenture

After wieghing the options, I went with the Dual XGPS 170.  Wx is my primary interest as I fly mostly in rural mtns of E TN and use mode C flight following on xcountry. On a flight to Knoxville this a.m., the unit worked quiet well for metars and winds aloft. There was no convective activity in the area, so Nothing was being dispayed from radar, which I assume is correct. Are there any nuisances with the 170 running with naviator that I should know?
Thanks for everyone's input.

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#16 2014-Aug-07 1:55 pm

jimgfitzgerald
Member
Registered: 2012-Oct-26
Posts: 530

Re: AirVenture

None that I remember.  The Dual XGPS170 worked very well if you remember the traffic limitations.  (I fly out of KGVL)

Last edited by jimgfitzgerald (2014-Aug-07 1:56 pm)

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#17 2014-Aug-07 4:35 pm

dontaw
Member
Registered: 2013-Oct-19
Posts: 54

Re: AirVenture

Yhea, some days, sailplanes and hang gliders are the biggest traffic concerns in these parts. I fly off of grass, TN66.

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#18 2014-Aug-07 4:47 pm

jimgfitzgerald
Member
Registered: 2012-Oct-26
Posts: 530

Re: AirVenture

Do you ever fly over to the EAA breakfast at BGF or any of the other airports around CHA?

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#19 2014-Aug-07 5:47 pm

dontaw
Member
Registered: 2013-Oct-19
Posts: 54

Re: AirVenture

Actually I was there on July 5. Big crowd. Usually do 3 or 4 breakfasts a year.

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#20 2014-Aug-07 5:52 pm

jimgfitzgerald
Member
Registered: 2012-Oct-26
Posts: 530

Re: AirVenture

Me too, but not in a long time.  Need to make it back up there soon.

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